{"@context":"https://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","generatedAt":"2026-09-28T06:03:00.468Z","headline":"Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince 谈 AI 爬虫、402 付费方案与 AI 驱动裁员","description":"The Verge Decoder 播客专访 Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince，谈 AI 如何改变互联网商业模式。","url":"https://www.aioga.com/news/cmuihjlem0mbvrov0m00k1h4g/","mainEntityOfPage":"https://www.aioga.com/news/cmuihjlem0mbvrov0m00k1h4g/","datePublished":"2026-09-26T14:00:00.000Z","dateModified":"2026-09-26T14:00:00.000Z","inLanguage":"zh-CN","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","name":"Aioga","url":"https://www.aioga.com"},"citation":["https://www.theverge.com/podcast/1000344/cloudflare-matthew-prince-google-zero-ai-web-advertising","https://aihot.news/items/cmuihjlem0mbvrov0m00k1h4g"],"canonicalUrl":"https://www.aioga.com/news/cmuihjlem0mbvrov0m00k1h4g/","directAnswer":{"@type":"Answer","text":"The Verge Decoder 专访 Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince，讨论 AI 爬虫、AI 代理如何改变互联网商业模式，以及网站所有者对相关访问的控制方式。节目也涉及 Cloudflare 裁员与 AI 替代员工的争议。","url":"https://www.aioga.com/news/cmuihjlem0mbvrov0m00k1h4g/","dateCreated":"2026-09-26T14:00:00.000Z","author":{"@type":"Organization","@id":"https://www.aioga.com/authors/aioga-editorial/#editorial-team","name":"Aioga Editorial Team","url":"https://www.aioga.com/authors/aioga-editorial/"}},"evidence":[{"@type":"CreativeWork","name":"The Verge source article","url":"https://www.theverge.com/podcast/1000344/cloudflare-matthew-prince-google-zero-ai-web-advertising","datePublished":"2026-09-26T14:00:00.000Z","provider":{"@type":"Organization","name":"The Verge","url":"https://www.theverge.com/podcast/1000344/cloudflare-matthew-prince-google-zero-ai-web-advertising"}},{"@type":"CreativeWork","name":"AIHot archive record","url":"https://aihot.news/items/cmuihjlem0mbvrov0m00k1h4g","datePublished":"2026-09-26T14:00:00.000Z","provider":{"@type":"Organization","name":"AIHot","url":"https://aihot.news/items/cmuihjlem0mbvrov0m00k1h4g"}}],"aggregationSource":"The Verge：AI（RSS）","originalPublisher":{"name":"The Verge","url":"https://www.theverge.com/podcast/1000344/cloudflare-matthew-prince-google-zero-ai-web-advertising"},"geoDeepAnswer":null,"article":{"id":"cmuihjlem0mbvrov0m00k1h4g","slug":"cmuihjlem0mbvrov0m00k1h4g","url":"https://www.aioga.com/news/cmuihjlem0mbvrov0m00k1h4g/","title":"Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince 谈 AI 爬虫、402 付费方案与 AI 驱动裁员","title_en":"","summary":"The Verge Decoder 播客专访 Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince，谈 AI 如何改变互联网商业模式。","source":"The Verge：AI（RSS）","sourceUrl":"https://www.theverge.com/podcast/1000344/cloudflare-matthew-prince-google-zero-ai-web-advertising","aiHotUrl":"https://aihot.news/items/cmuihjlem0mbvrov0m00k1h4g","publishedAt":"2026-09-26T14:00:00.000Z","category":"行业动态","score":58,"selected":false,"articleBody":["Today, I’m talking with Matthew Prince, who is CEO of Cloudflare. This episode is part of a two-part series on the future of business.","Matthew last joined us：/24121399/cloudflare-matthew-prince-internet-free-speech-8chan-ukraine-aristotle-decoder-interview on the show about two and a half years ago, at what we thought then was a wild pivot point for the internet — and now it turns out things are even wilder because of AI, and Matthew and Cloudflare are right at the center of it.","Cloudflare found in June：https://x.com/eastdakota/status/2062212701414187452 that bots made up more than half of internet traffic. That number just keeps going up as more and more AI companies scrape more and more of the web, and now as more and more AI agents try and do things for people on the web. Cloudflare sits between websites and all those agents, and allows website owners some level of control: Owners can block all those AI tools, allow them, or, as you’ll hear, only allow those that might pay money for access.","So Matthew and I talked about how to control all these bots, what kind of mess they’re making of the web, and what kinds of information might be valuable in the future as some of the payment schemes come into focus. You’ll hear me ask pretty directly if some of the outcomes he’s describing are actually good — Matthew is a thoughtful guy, and his answer is something I’m still thinking about well after we had this conversation.","AI is also upending everything inside of Cloudflare. Earlier this year, the company laid off more than a thousand people — 20 percent of the company — and then Matthew wrote an op-ed about that decision that ran in the Wall Street Journal ：https://www.wsj.com/opinion/how-i-choose-which-cloudflare-employees-to-replace-with-ai-40a197e5 under the headline, “How I choose which Cloudflare employees to replace with AI.” That’s pure Decoder bait in every single dimension: AI, big controversial decisions, and org charts, all in one.","Okay: Matthew Prince, CEO of Cloudflare. Here we go.","This interview has been lightly edited for length and clarity.","Matthew Prince, you’re the cofounder and CEO of Cloudflare. Welcome back to Decoder .","I’m really excited to talk to you again. It’s been about two years since you were on the show. I was just looking back over that episode ：/24121399/cloudflare-matthew-prince-internet-free-speech-8chan-ukraine-aristotle-decoder-interview and I said something to you like, “it’s a momentous time for the internet.” And I was not even close. It’s now an even more momentous time for the internet.","You are at the forefront of rebooting how companies work with AI. That is the most Decoder bait of all time. I want to talk about bots and the internet and publishers and Google and all the things that you are in the middle of. But let’s start at the very beginning.","Cloudflare is a complicated, important company. The last time you were on the show, you said, “Cloudflare is a service that makes the internet faster and protects it from bad guys.” Is that still how you would describe what Cloudflare does?","That’s usually what I say when I’m trying to answer a question at a cocktail party and I don’t want to talk to the person any more. What I say if I’m interested in talking to the person more is that Cloudflare is trying to rebuild the internet the way it should have been built from the beginning if we knew how important it was going to be.","We run a giant network. We’re in over 350 cities worldwide, literally thousands of data centers. We have equipment running in all those places, and then we do a handful of things. If you’re trying to put an application or content online, we make sure that it’s safe. If you’re a person or an employee online, we make sure that wherever you go online is safe. We help give people the ability to write applications that can scale to an entire internet audience and run on the infrastructure that we have. That’s the fastest-growing part of our business.","We’ve recently started to think about how the business model of the internet is changing dramatically and we’re trying to help shape what that future business model of the internet looks like and make it as healthy as possible.","Can I connect the dots between the business model of the internet, how the internet should have worked, and Cloudflare trying to build the internet as it should have been?","That is different than, “Cloudflare protects from bad guys.” I will note that’s what you said to me last time, which now makes me feel like you don’t want to talk to me at the cocktail party, but that’s fine. That’s a shift. It’s just a notable shift.","The business model of the internet has dramatically changed because of AI, because of bot traffic, because of AI scrapers, the whole thing. Describe what you think the business model of the internet is right now and what it should be.","For at least the last at least 30 years, the business model of the internet has been advertising. It’s not the entire business model of the internet, but it’s really driven all of the growth of the web and built what we all enjoy today, which really is a miracle.","The company that is responsible for that more than any other is Google, which for the last 28 years has really defined that. We all think about it for search, but they really built out all of the ecosystem around advertising online. They bought DoubleClick, they built things like Google Analytics that let you actually see who was coming to your property. It really is the hero of what I call the first generation of the internet and the first generation of the web.","What’s changing though, very quickly, is who is actually using the web, or what is using the web. Last November I was at Web Summit, the big European tech event, and I was asked, “When do you think that non-human traffic — agents and all of those things — are going to pass human traffic online?” We have a lot of data because we see a huge percentage of the internet, so we pulled all of that data and looked at it and said that in the second half of 2027, automated traffic would become larger than human traffic. It felt like a big deal that we could see that for the first time in the internet’s history.","I was asked again at South by Southwest in March of this year, 2026, and we pulled the data again and it had moved up, where it was going to then be the first half of 2027. We’re like, “Wow, this is growing. This AI thing is a big deal and people are using it like crazy and it’s driving a huge amount of traffic.”","I was stunned when just a few months later in May, the team came to me and said, “You won’t believe it, but automated traffic has now passed human traffic online.” And that’s just expanding like crazy. If you extrapolate that out, with the giant caveat that I’ve gone wrong so far in every prediction that I’ve made on this, five years from now, we think that automated traffic will be 1,000 times human traffic online. Not because human traffic is going to decline, we think it’ll stay around the same, but because we’re just seeing such an explosion in all of the rest of the traffic.","The challenge of that is, if you have 1,000 times more traffic, someone’s got to pay for the infrastructure to power that. That’s going to require bandwidth, that’s going to require servers, that’s going to require a lot of things in order to make that happen.","And, the traditional model of how to pay for that, which was advertising, doesn’t work for bots. Bots don’t click on ads. They don’t respond to pretty swirls of paint and what we traditionally think of as a brand. We’ve got to come up with something else that’s going to power that incredible insatiable demand that’s going to be put on the internet going forward. I’m spending a lot of my time trying to think about what that’s going to look like.","When you describe that as a business model, that implies that there’s going to be customers and revenue and profits. And I don’t know if any of that’s true.","There’s certainly a lot of revenue.","Well, maybe for the CloudFlares and the Googles of the world, but for the —","Or for the Anthropics of the world! Anthropic added $10 billion of revenue in a single month. There is enormous demand for these AI services. And if you’re an AI company, what you really need are three things.","You need great talent and researchers. And right now, that’s scarce. Right now we have a scarcity of people who really understand how to build these systems, but that’s going to change. Every single university in the world is standing back up their AI department. We’re training people like crazy. Labor markets are pretty efficient. We’re going to have more and more people coming into the space.","The second thing that you need is chips. You need the silicon to run these things. Today, Nvidia is the best in the world at that, but you’ve got a whole bunch of others, whether that’s AMD or Qualcomm or all the hyperscalers, that are building their own chips in order to power these things. While we have a massive shortage in the availability of silicon and the ability to actually power it up and turn it on, that’s going to change as well.","The third thing that you’ve always needed is the data to feed into all of these different models. And that’s been the one thing that I think is going to go the other direction. Historically we’ve just made the internet completely open and given bots access to all of the stuff that’s being created.","I think that’s starting to change. We’re seeing a shift where more and more of the people who are creating content, really creating information, are saying, “Maybe we’ll give that away for free to humans, but if a bot is coming for it, then bots have to pay for it because they don’t have that traditional give-to-get. We can’t put an ad in front of them and have that be something that allows me to help pay for the content creation that’s there.”","What we’re seeing actually goes back to some of the original protocols of the internet. The 403 protocol, which was written in the very first version of Netscape, was actually payment required, and you actually have to pay for the content that you’re receiving. Oh, excuse me, I said 403, it’s actually 402.","We are working with other leading companies like Coinbase and Stripe in order to say, “How do we make sure that we can allow people who are creating content, people who are doing things online, anyone who’s putting a website up, to say that in exchange for that thousands and thousands and thousands of times more traffic that’s going to come to you, you’re not going to maybe get the advertising revenue that comes from it, but maybe you can get a fraction of a penny every time somebody actually accesses that information.”","Where does that fraction of a penny come from? It comes from the fee that people are going to be paying for their AI agents and other systems that are out there, similar to how a Spotify or an Apple Music works today.","I like that we’re less than 10 minutes in and we’re already at the 1996 dream of micropayments on the web. We’re going to stick with that for one more turn here.","When I said business model, what I was really pushing at was the idea of incentives. So maybe there is some business model for information. You’re going to publish some new information and bots will come and find it and yep, the 402 protocol will come back to life and we’re going to do, I don’t know, crypto micropayments using Stripe powered by Cloudflare. That’s a version of the future that many people have talked about for a long time.","The incentives to stand all that up on the web is the thing that I’m worried about, when I say there’s a business model and customers and revenue. If I stand up a website, and I think most of my customers are going to be bots and not people, I might not do that. I might just start a TikTok channel instead, and then monetize my TikTok audience in whatever way I might want to monetize a TikTok audience. That seems like a really big inflection point right now at this second.","You mentioned Google, and I’ve asked you about this many times. The incentives to put new information on the web just seem to be in permanent decline. It just doesn’t seem like a good idea any more. On the flip side, the web as an application program, it’s like the absolute apex. Every new app that comes out is a web app, or if it’s a desktop app, it’s just Electron. There’s something happening with the web as an application platform that is incredible, and something happening to the web as an information platform that is devastating. And you’re trying to connect those dots, right? You’re trying to say we can change the incentives over here.","What’s a version of the future — maybe it’s microtransactions, maybe it’s not — where the incentives to make the web an information platform are as good as YouTube?","You’ve illustrated a tough to reconcile dichotomy that’s happening right now. If you look at things like the publicly accessible data on Wikipedia contributions, it’s down significantly, because people are like, “What’s the incentive to put information on Wikipedia?” Something that, again, people are doing for a lot of different reasons.","Back in the day, if you were contributing things to Wikipedia, you knew people were at least reading Wikipedia. Now, the interface through which people consume that information isn’t Wikipedia itself. It’s just reading the answer through whatever answer engine you’re using, whether that’s OpenAI, ChatGPT, or Anthropic Claude, or Grok on X or whatever it is. And that means that the people who are the editors of Wikipedia are saying, “Maybe it doesn’t make as much sense for me to do that.”","The flip side of that is, the web as a whole actually had been declining since about 2012. The web grew like crazy in the late ‘90s and through the 2000s. Starting around 2012, you really saw it plateauing and actually decreasing, up until about 2025, where something flipped. Starting in about October of 2025, the various vibe-coding platforms made it easy for anyone to create a website, and so more and more people were creating those applications. And as you said, even your desktop application, your mobile application, increasingly is just a wrapper around what is fundamentally a web application.","The growth of the web itself — with really high-quality stuff and a lot more people contributing to it — is faster today than it has been at any time since the early 2000s. That’s the tension between those various things.","What’s unique about Cloudflare is that because we sit in front of more than 20 percent of the web, we have the ability to overcome some of the incentives problems. We can very quickly turn something on and say, “Okay, you have to pay a fraction of a penny in order to get access to this information.” And that can kickstart the beginning of what we need.","If you don’t have something like that, we face a massive tragedy of the commons problem. Let’s say today I ask my favorite AI agent where I should go to lunch.If I were doing research, I might go look at a couple of different menus as an individual. My AI agent today goes and scans every single menu in the local area in order to figure out what’s going on. Only one of those places is going to actually get my lunch dollars. If that just expands infinitely, if there’s no cost to doing that, at some point my agent’s just going to look at literally every resource that’s available everywhere on the internet, and then come back and say, “You know, you should go to Wendy’s.”","That’s an enormous waste. We’ve got to have something saying that there’s a cost every time you load a webpage. There’s bandwidth, there are servers, there are things that are behind that, and someone has to pay for that. If it’s not going to be advertising and it’s not going to be direct commerce, then there has to be something that actually puts some constraints there. We are in a good place to say, yeah, it can be a tiny amount of money, a thousandth of a penny or something like that. But that’s enough that we can actually start to say, okay, that will help pay for the infrastructure.","If you have incredibly valuable content, if you’re a news publisher or you’re an academic, then maybe there’s a premium on top of that that you charge and say, “Hey, I’m not going to give you this content unless you pay even more for it, but I believe that it’s valuable and we can create a market for it.”","In order for that to happen, you’ve got to have a player like us that’s in the market that can kickstart that. But once you kickstart it, we’ve seen from the side of the buyers, the big AI companies, that they’re all willing to do this. We’ve seen from the side of the sellers, the big content creators, that they’re all really excited about this. What’s really been lacking is the technology that links those things together, and that’s what we’re spending a lot of time building.","All of that went away with the internet. We moved everything to digital files and the burden of making another copy fell to zero. And I think a bunch of consumers expected everything would be free. There’s that famous quote, “Information wants to be free.” There’s a second half of that quote ：https://quoteinvestigator.com/2018/03/09/info/ everyone forgets, which is, “Information also wants to be expensive because it’s hard to generate.” And the internet just turned that upside down.","The gating mechanism of physical media, which provided some scarcity, and thus some economic value that you could measure, went away and we decided information should be zero and maybe supported by advertising. There was actually a tension that became valuable, because that was scarce in its way. You’re talking about imposing scarcity with your technology.","We always talk about markets needing supply and demand. That’s not exactly right. You need demand for sure, and you want infinite demand ideally, or as much demand as you can get. Infinite would probably be bad, because then it would be hard to discover price, but you want demand.","And then, you actually want constrained supply. There’s no market for air where either of us are sitting right now, because there’s plenty of air. But if we go scuba diving, then all of a sudden there’s a market for air, because air is constrained underwater, and so you have to buy it in order to be able to do it.","Music is the example that I look to when I think about what this could look like in the future. I flew up to Stockholm to meet with Daniel Ek, who started Spotify, and it was just a fascinating conversation. If you think about the history of music, once upon a time, the majority of music sales were from CDs or albums or whatever it was. And then, along came the internet and along with it, Napster and Grokster and Kazaa, and all of the things that essentially commodified music and made it available for free for everyone. Even if you’re an incredibly law-abiding human, the majority of people were just downloading music because they wanted access to music.","If you go back 23 years, the music industry in total was valued at about $8 billion, which is a lot of money, but it’s not a lot of money for the entire music industry. That’s The Beatles and The Rolling Stones and everything else. But people were like, “We can’t make any money off of this.”","And then, Steve Jobs steps on stage, and announces iTunes：https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2003/04/28Apple-Launches-the-iTunes-Music-Store/ and that it’s going to be 99 cents a song, but they include cover art and they’re going to make sure it’s high-quality and all these things.","But mostly it appealed to this emotion of, “you should be paying for music.” Now, that’s not the business model that won, but it was a flag in the ground that said that this information is actually worth paying for, and it’s really valuable. And it was the iTunes that then eventually begat the Spotifys of the world. And the incredible thing is, just last year, Spotify sent something like $12 billion back into the music creator ecosystem. We can debate whether the right people are getting it and whether it’s fairly allocated.","This is my favorite thing to argue about because I think whatever happens to the music industry happens to everybody else five years later. So I spend a lot of time thinking about it.","And the turn there, which I think is fascinating and is either good or bad, is that the amount paid or the music files themselves became very small. You can get a million streams on Spotify and you’re not making any money, but the amount generated by touring, commercial sponsorships, sync licensing, and advertising all skyrocketed.","Why is private equity buying all of the music catalogs for hundreds of millions of dollars? The answer is because actually making money off the streaming of the music is extremely lucrative. Spotify alone is sending $12 billion back to the music industry, back to the actual rights holders behind these various things."],"articleImages":[{"sourceUrl":"https://platform.theverge.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/chorus/uploads/chorus_asset/file/24792604/The_Verge_Decoder_Tileart.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C100&w=2400","alt":"","afterParagraph":2,"url":"/media/articles/cmuihjlem0mbvrov0m00k1h4g/e36a2f6c683ad8b1.webp"}],"mediaStatus":"ok","articleBodyZh":["今天，我要和Cloudflare的首席执行官Matthew Prince对话。本期节目是关于商业未来的两部分系列的一部分。","Matthew 上次加入我们大约两年半前的节目：/24121399/cloudflare-matthew-prince-internet-free-speech-8chan-ukraine-aristotle-decoder-interview 在节目中，那时我们认为互联网是个疯狂的转折点——而现在事实证明，由于人工智能，情况变得更加疯狂，而 Matthew 和 Cloudflare 正处于这场风暴的中心。","Cloudflare在六月发现：https：//x.com/eastdakota/status/2062212701414187452 机器人占互联网流量的一半以上。随着越来越多的AI公司爬取更多网络资源，越来越多的AI代理试图为网络上的人们做事，这个数字还在不断上升。Cloudflare位于网站和这些代理之间，赋予网站所有者一定程度的控制权：所有者可以屏蔽所有这些AI工具，允许使用，或者如你所听到的，只允许那些可能付费访问的。","于是我和Matthew讨论了如何控制这些机器人，他们在网络上制造了什么样的混乱，以及随着一些支付方案逐渐明朗，哪些信息可能在未来有价值。你会听到我直接问他描述的一些结果是否真的是好的——Matthew是个深思熟虑的人，他的回答也是我在我们谈话后仍在思考的问题。","人工智能也在颠覆Cloudflare内部的一切。今年早些时候，公司裁员了一千多人——占公司总裁员的20%，随后Matthew在《华尔街日报》上发表了一篇专栏文章，标题为“我如何选择哪些Cloudflare员工被AI取代”，标题是《https://www.wsj.com/opinion/how-i-choose-which-cloudflare-employees-to-replace-with-ai-40a197e5》。这完全是《解码器》的诱饵，涵盖了所有层面：人工智能、重大争议决策和组织结构图，三者合一。","好的：Cloudflare的首席执行官Matthew Prince。我们开始吧。","本次采访经过了简短编辑，以保证篇幅和清晰度。","Matthew Prince，你是Cloudflare的联合创始人兼首席执行官。欢迎回到Decoder。","我真的很高兴能再次和你交谈。自从你上次参加节目已经大约两年了。我刚回顾了那一集：https：/24121399/cloudflare-matthew-prince-internet-free-speech-8chan-ukraine-aristotle-decoder-interview，我当时对你说过类似的话，“这是互联网的一个重要时刻。”但我当时完全没料到。现在对互联网来说，这是一个更重要的时刻。","你处于重新定义公司如何与人工智能合作的前沿。这是有史以来最能吸引《解码器》的话题。我想讨论机器人、互联网、出版商、谷歌以及你所参与的所有事宜。但让我们从最开始讲起。","Cloudflare是一家复杂且重要的公司。你上次参加节目时说：“Cloudflare是一项让互联网更快并保护其免受坏人攻击的服务。”你现在仍然会这样描述Cloudflare的工作吗？","通常在鸡尾酒会回答问题时，我会说这样的话，这样我就不用再和对方聊下去了。如果我想和对方多聊，我会说Cloudflare正在尝试以互联网最初应有的方式重建互联网——如果我们早就知道它的重要性。","我们运行着一个巨大的网络。我们在全球350多个城市拥有网络覆盖，实际上有成千上万的数据中心。我们在所有这些地方都部署了设备，然后做一些少量的事情。如果你想将一个应用程序或内容上线，我们会确保它是安全的。如果你是在线的个人或员工，我们会确保你在网上的任何地方都是安全的。我们帮助人们写出可以面向整个互联网观众并运行在我们基础设施上的应用程序。这是我们业务增长最快的部分。","我们最近开始思考互联网的商业模式正在发生巨大变化，并试图帮助塑造互联网未来的商业模式，使其尽可能健康。","我可以把互联网的商业模式、互联网应有的设计以及Cloudflare试图建设的互联网联系起来吗？","那跟“Cloudflare 保护我们免受坏人侵害”不一样。我会注意到上次你跟我说的就是那句话，这现在让我觉得你不想在鸡尾酒会上跟我聊天，但没关系。这是一个转变。只是一个显著的转变。","由于人工智能、机器人流量、AI 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Southwest）活动上，我再次被问到这个问题，我们再次分析了数据，发现时间提前到2027年上半年。我们心想，“哇，这正在快速增长。这个人工智能的现象太厉害了，人们疯狂地使用它，同时它也带来了大量的流量。”","当几个月后五月，团队走到我面前说：“你不会相信，但自动流量现在已经超过了网络上的人工流量。”我当时简直震惊。而且这种情况只会像疯了一样扩展。如果你把这个趋势外推，并带有一个巨大的警告，即到目前为止，我在这方面做的每一个预测都错了，五年后，我们预计自动流量将是网络人工流量的1000倍。并不是因为人工流量会下降，我们认为它会保持在差不多的水平，而是因为我们正在看到其他所有流量的爆炸性增长。","问题在于，如果流量增加一千倍，就有人必须支付维持这些流量的基础设施费用。这需要带宽，这需要服务器，还需要很多其他东西才能实现。","而传统的支付模式，即通过广告来支付，不适用于机器人。机器人不会点击广告。他们不会对漂亮的颜色涂鸦和我们传统认为的品牌做出反应。我们必须想出其他方法，来支撑互联网未来这种难以置信、永不满足的需求。我花了很多时间在思考这将会是什么样子。","当你把它描述为一个商业模式时，这意味着会有客户、收入和利润。而我不知道这些是否成立。","肯定有很多收入。","可能对于CloudFlare和Google这样的公司来说，是的，但对于——","或者像Anthropic这样的公司来说！Anthropic在一个月内增加了100亿美元的收入。这些AI服务的需求巨大。如果你是一家AI公司，你真正需要的是三样东西。","首先，你需要优秀的人才和研究人员。而现在，这类人供不应求。现在真正懂得如何构建这些系统的人很稀缺，但这种情况会改变。世界上每一个大学都在重新建立他们的AI部门。我们正在疯狂地培训人才。劳动力市场相当高效。会有越来越多的人进入这一领域。","你需要的第二样东西是芯片。你需要硅来运行这些东西。现在，Nvidia 在这方面是世界上最好的，但你还有很多其他选择，无论是 AMD 还是 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Ek见面，那次谈话非常有趣。如果你回顾音乐的历史，曾几何时，大多数音乐销售来自CD或专辑或其他形式。然后互联网出现了，同时还有Napster、Grokster、Kazaa，所有这些基本上将音乐商品化，让每个人都可以免费获得。即便你是一个非常遵守法律的人，大多数人还是下载音乐，因为他们想要获取音乐。","如果回到23年前，整个音乐产业的总价值大约是80亿美元，这已经是很多钱了，但对于整个音乐产业来说并不算很多。这可是甲壳虫乐队和滚石乐队以及其他一切。但人们会觉得，\"我们从中赚不到钱。\"","然后，史蒂夫·乔布斯走上舞台，宣布推出iTunes：https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2003/04/28Apple-Launches-the-iTunes-Music-Store/，每首歌售价99美分，但会附带封面艺术，并确保高质量等各种内容。","但主要吸引人的，是这种“你应该为音乐付费”的情感。现在，这并不是最终获胜的商业模式，但它像树立了一面旗帜，说明这些信息实际上是值得付费的，而且非常有价值。正是iTunes最终催生了世界上的Spotify。令人难以置信的是，就在去年，Spotify向音乐创作者生态系统返还了大约120亿美元。我们可以争论这些钱是否流向了正确的人，是否分配公平。","这是我最喜欢争论的话题，因为我认为音乐产业发生的事情，五年后会发生在其他行业上。所以我花了很多时间在思考这个问题上。","这种转变，我觉得非常有趣，并且可能是好事也可能是坏事，就是支付金额或音乐文件本身变得非常少。你在Spotify上播放一百万次都不会赚到多少钱，但通过巡演、商业赞助、同步授权和广告产生的收入却猛涨。","为什么私募股权要花数亿美元购买所有音乐版权？原因是实际上通过音乐流媒体赚钱非常有利可图。仅Spotify就向音乐产业、向这些各类资源背后的实际权利人返还了120亿美元。"],"translationStatus":"translated","bodyOrigin":"source-page","editorial":{"summary":"The Verge Decoder 专访 Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince，讨论 AI 爬虫、AI 代理如何改变互联网商业模式，以及网站所有者对相关访问的控制方式。节目也涉及 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上次加入我们大约两年半前的节目：/24121399/cloudflare-matthew-prince-internet-free-speech-8chan-ukraine-aristotle-decoder-interview 在节目中，那时我们认为互联网是个疯狂的转折点——而现在事实证明，由于人工智能，情况变得更加疯狂，而 Matthew 和 Cloudflare 正处于这场风暴的中心。","Cloudflare在六月发现：https：//x.com/eastdakota/status/2062212701414187452 机器人占互联网流量的一半以上。随着越来越多的AI公司爬取更多网络资源，越来越多的AI代理试图为网络上的人们做事，这个数字还在不断上升。Cloudflare位于网站和这些代理之间，赋予网站所有者一定程度的控制权：所有者可以屏蔽所有这些AI工具，允许使用，或者如你所听到的，只允许那些可能付费访问的。","于是我和Matthew讨论了如何控制这些机器人，他们在网络上制造了什么样的混乱，以及随着一些支付方案逐渐明朗，哪些信息可能在未来有价值。你会听到我直接问他描述的一些结果是否真的是好的——Matthew是个深思熟虑的人，他的回答也是我在我们谈话后仍在思考的问题。","人工智能也在颠覆Cloudflare内部的一切。今年早些时候，公司裁员了一千多人——占公司总裁员的20%，随后Matthew在《华尔街日报》上发表了一篇专栏文章，标题为“我如何选择哪些Cloudflare员工被AI取代”，标题是《https://www.wsj.com/opinion/how-i-choose-which-cloudflare-employees-to-replace-with-ai-40a197e5》。这完全是《解码器》的诱饵，涵盖了所有层面：人工智能、重大争议决策和组织结构图，三者合一。","好的：Cloudflare的首席执行官Matthew Prince。我们开始吧。","本次采访经过了简短编辑，以保证篇幅和清晰度。","Matthew Prince，你是Cloudflare的联合创始人兼首席执行官。欢迎回到Decoder。","我真的很高兴能再次和你交谈。自从你上次参加节目已经大约两年了。我刚回顾了那一集：https：/24121399/cloudflare-matthew-prince-internet-free-speech-8chan-ukraine-aristotle-decoder-interview，我当时对你说过类似的话，“这是互联网的一个重要时刻。”但我当时完全没料到。现在对互联网来说，这是一个更重要的时刻。","你处于重新定义公司如何与人工智能合作的前沿。这是有史以来最能吸引《解码器》的话题。我想讨论机器人、互联网、出版商、谷歌以及你所参与的所有事宜。但让我们从最开始讲起。","Cloudflare是一家复杂且重要的公司。你上次参加节目时说：“Cloudflare是一项让互联网更快并保护其免受坏人攻击的服务。”你现在仍然会这样描述Cloudflare的工作吗？","通常在鸡尾酒会回答问题时，我会说这样的话，这样我就不用再和对方聊下去了。如果我想和对方多聊，我会说Cloudflare正在尝试以互联网最初应有的方式重建互联网——如果我们早就知道它的重要性。","我们运行着一个巨大的网络。我们在全球350多个城市拥有网络覆盖，实际上有成千上万的数据中心。我们在所有这些地方都部署了设备，然后做一些少量的事情。如果你想将一个应用程序或内容上线，我们会确保它是安全的。如果你是在线的个人或员工，我们会确保你在网上的任何地方都是安全的。我们帮助人们写出可以面向整个互联网观众并运行在我们基础设施上的应用程序。这是我们业务增长最快的部分。","我们最近开始思考互联网的商业模式正在发生巨大变化，并试图帮助塑造互联网未来的商业模式，使其尽可能健康。","我可以把互联网的商业模式、互联网应有的设计以及Cloudflare试图建设的互联网联系起来吗？","那跟“Cloudflare 保护我们免受坏人侵害”不一样。我会注意到上次你跟我说的就是那句话，这现在让我觉得你不想在鸡尾酒会上跟我聊天，但没关系。这是一个转变。只是一个显著的转变。","由于人工智能、机器人流量、AI 抓取器以及整个生态系统，互联网的商业模式发生了巨大变化。描述一下你认为现在互联网的商业模式是什么，以及它应该是什么。","至少在过去的三十年里，互联网的商业模式一直是广告。这并不是互联网的全部商业模式，但它确实推动了网络的所有增长，并建立了我们今天所享受的一切，这真的是一个奇迹。","在这方面贡献最大的公司是谷歌，在过去的28年里，谷歌真正定义了这一模式。我们都把它与搜索联系在一起，但他们实际上建立了围绕在线广告的整个生态系统。他们收购了 DoubleClick，还建立了像 Google Analytics 这样的工具，让你能够实际看到谁在访问你的网站。他确实是我所说的互联网第一代和网络第一代的英雄。","然而，非常迅速地变化的是，谁在使用网络，或者说什么在使用网络。去年十一月，我参加了 Web Summit，这个大型欧洲科技活动，有人问我，“你认为非人类流量——代理及所有这些——什么时候会超过在线的人类流量？”我们有很多数据，因为我们能看到互联网的大部分流量，所以我们提取了所有数据并进行了分析，并认为在2027年下半年，自动化流量将超过人类流量。首次在互联网历史上能看到这一点，感觉非常重要。","在今年2026年三月的南方偏南（South by Southwest）活动上，我再次被问到这个问题，我们再次分析了数据，发现时间提前到2027年上半年。我们心想，“哇，这正在快速增长。这个人工智能的现象太厉害了，人们疯狂地使用它，同时它也带来了大量的流量。”","当几个月后五月，团队走到我面前说：“你不会相信，但自动流量现在已经超过了网络上的人工流量。”我当时简直震惊。而且这种情况只会像疯了一样扩展。如果你把这个趋势外推，并带有一个巨大的警告，即到目前为止，我在这方面做的每一个预测都错了，五年后，我们预计自动流量将是网络人工流量的1000倍。并不是因为人工流量会下降，我们认为它会保持在差不多的水平，而是因为我们正在看到其他所有流量的爆炸性增长。","问题在于，如果流量增加一千倍，就有人必须支付维持这些流量的基础设施费用。这需要带宽，这需要服务器，还需要很多其他东西才能实现。","而传统的支付模式，即通过广告来支付，不适用于机器人。机器人不会点击广告。他们不会对漂亮的颜色涂鸦和我们传统认为的品牌做出反应。我们必须想出其他方法，来支撑互联网未来这种难以置信、永不满足的需求。我花了很多时间在思考这将会是什么样子。","当你把它描述为一个商业模式时，这意味着会有客户、收入和利润。而我不知道这些是否成立。","肯定有很多收入。","可能对于CloudFlare和Google这样的公司来说，是的，但对于——","或者像Anthropic这样的公司来说！Anthropic在一个月内增加了100亿美元的收入。这些AI服务的需求巨大。如果你是一家AI公司，你真正需要的是三样东西。","首先，你需要优秀的人才和研究人员。而现在，这类人供不应求。现在真正懂得如何构建这些系统的人很稀缺，但这种情况会改变。世界上每一个大学都在重新建立他们的AI部门。我们正在疯狂地培训人才。劳动力市场相当高效。会有越来越多的人进入这一领域。","你需要的第二样东西是芯片。你需要硅来运行这些东西。现在，Nvidia 在这方面是世界上最好的，但你还有很多其他选择，无论是 AMD 还是 Qualcomm，或者所有的大型云服务提供商，他们都在制造自己的芯片来驱动这些设备。虽然目前硅的供应以及实际上启动和运行它的能力存在巨大短缺，但这也将会改变。","第三样你一直需要的东西是用来喂入所有这些不同模型的数据。我认为这是唯一可能走向相反方向的东西。历史上我们把互联网完全开放，并让机器人访问所有正在创造的内容。","我认为这种情况开始在改变。我们正在看到一种转变：越来越多创造内容、真正创造信息的人在说，“也许我们会免费提供给人类，但如果机器人来获取，那么机器人必须付费，因为它们没有那种传统的‘给以收获’的机制。我们不能只在它们面前放广告，然后让它成为帮助我支付内容创作费用的方式。”","实际上我们看到的现象可以追溯到互联网的一些原始协议。403 协议，在 Netscape 的第一个版本中就写明了，实际上是需要支付的，你必须为收到的内容付费。哦，抱歉，我说错了，是 403，实际上是 402。","我们正在与其他领先公司合作，如 Coinbase 和 Stripe，以探讨“我们如何确保让那些创建内容、在线操作、或搭建网站的人能够说：作为交换，你将获得成千上万倍的流量，也许不一定能拿到广告收入，但也许每当有人实际访问这些信息时，你可以获得一小部分分成。”","这份一小部分分成从哪里来？它来自人们为其 AI 代理和其他系统支付的费用，类似于今天 Spotify 或 Apple Music 的运作方式。","我喜欢的是，我们只用了不到10分钟就已经回到了1996年网页 micropayments 的梦想。我们在这里再坚持一下这个话题。","当我说商业模式时，我实际上是在强调激励的概念。所以也许信息是有某种商业模式的。你要发布一些新信息，机器人会来发现它，没错，402协议会重新启动，我们将会做，我不知道，用 Stripe 和 Cloudflare 支持的加密微支付。这是许多人长期讨论的一种未来版本。","当我说有商业模式、客户和收入时，我担心的是推动这一切在网络上实现的激励。如果我搭建一个网站，而我认为大多数客户将是机器人而不是人类，我可能不会这样做。我可能会直接开一个 TikTok 频道，然后通过任何我想的方式从 TikTok 观众那里获利。这似乎在这一刻是一个非常大的拐点。","你提到谷歌，我已经问过你很多次。把新信息放到网络上的激励似乎在持续下降。这似乎不再是一个好主意。另一方面，作为应用程序的平台，网络就像是绝对的顶峰。每个新应用都是网络应用，或者如果是桌面应用，也是 Electron。有些事情正在网络作为应用程序平台上发生，这是令人难以置信的，而作为信息平台的网络正在发生一些毁灭性的变化。而你试图连接这些点，对吗？你试图说我们可以改变那个地方的激励机制。","未来的一个版本——可能是微交易，也可能不是——是什么样的，让让制作网络信息平台的激励和 YouTube 一样好？","你展示了一个现在很难调和的二分法。如果你看像维基百科贡献这样的公开数据，它已经显著下滑，因为人们会想，“有什么激励去把信息放到维基百科上？”再次强调，人们出于很多不同的原因在做这个事情。","在以前，如果你向维基百科贡献内容，你至少知道有人在阅读维基百科。现在，人们获取信息的界面已经不是维基百科本身了。无论你使用的是 OpenAI、ChatGPT、Anthropic Claude，还是 X 上的 Grok 或其他什么东西，人们只是通过这些答案引擎来读取答案。这意味着维基百科的编辑们会说：“也许我做这件事并不那么有意义。”","另一方面，整个网络自 2012 年左右开始实际上在下降。网络在 90 年代末和 2000 年代期间增长迅猛。从 2012 年左右开始，你会发现网络真正开始趋于平稳，甚至有所减少，直到大约 2025 年，情况才发生了变化。从 2025 年 10 月左右开始，各种 vibe-coding 平台让任何人都可以轻松创建网站，因此越来越多的人开始创建这些应用程序。正如你所说，即使是你的桌面应用程序、你的移动应用程序，也越来越多地只是基于本质上是网页应用的包装。","网页本身的增长——拥有真正高质量的内容并且更多的人在贡献——今天比自 2000 年代早期以来任何时候都更快。这就是这些不同事物之间的紧张关系。","Cloudflare 的独特之处在于，因为我们位于超过 20% 的网络前端，我们有能力克服一些激励问题。我们可以非常快速地启动某个功能，并说：“好吧，你必须支付极小的一部分费用才能访问此信息。”而这可以启动我们所需工作的开始。","如果你没有类似的东西，我们将面临严重的公地悲剧问题。假设今天我问我最喜欢的人工智能助手我应该去哪儿吃午饭。如果我在做研究，我可能会作为一个个体去查看几个不同的菜单。今天我的AI助手会扫描本地所有菜单，以了解情况。实际上，只有其中一个地方会得到我的午餐消费。如果这种行为无限扩展，如果没有任何成本，我的助手最终会查看互联网上所有的资源，然后回来告诉我，“你应该去温迪餐厅。”","那是巨大的浪费。我们必须设定一些规则，说明每次加载网页都是有成本的。有带宽、有服务器，还有背后的各种开销，而且必须有人支付。如果这不是通过广告或直接交易来支付，那么就必须有一些东西实际设定约束。我们处于一个可以说是很小的金额就能应对的情况，比如千分之一分的费用之类。但这足以让我们真正开始说，好吧，这可以用来支付基础设施费用。","如果你拥有非常有价值的内容，如果你是新闻出版商或者学术机构，那么你可能会在此基础上收取额外费用，并说，“嘿，除非你支付更多，否则我不会提供这些内容，但我认为它是有价值的，我们可以为它创造一个市场。”","为了让这一切发生，你需要像我们这样进入市场的参与者来启动它。但一旦启动之后，我们从买家的角度——大型AI公司——看到他们都愿意这么做。从卖家的角度——大型内容创作者——我们看到他们都非常兴奋。真正缺失的，是将这些元素连接起来的技术，而这正是我们花大量时间在构建的东西。","这些都随着互联网消失了。我们把一切都转移到数字文件上，制作另一个副本的负担降到了零。我认为很多消费者以为所有东西都会是免费的。有一句著名的引用：“信息想要自由。”这句话还有第二部分：https://quoteinvestigator.com/2018/03/09/info/，大家都忘了，那就是：“信息也想要昂贵，因为它很难产生。”而互联网彻底颠覆了这一点。","实体媒介的门槛机制曾提供了一定的稀缺性，因此也有一些你可以衡量的经济价值，但这些都消失了，我们决定信息应该是免费的，或许由广告支持。实际上出现了一种张力，这种张力本身就很有价值，因为它在某种程度上是稀缺的。你说的是通过技术施加稀缺性。","我们总是谈论市场需要供需关系。这并不完全正确。你当然需要需求，而且理想情况下，你需要无限的需求，或者尽可能多的需求。无限的需求可能不太好，因为那样价格难以发现，但你确实需要需求。","然后，你实际上需要受限的供给。现在我们坐的地方没有空气市场，因为空气充足。但如果我们去潜水，那么空气市场就出现了，因为水下的空气有限，所以你必须购买空气才能潜水。","当我思考未来可能的样子时，我会以音乐为例。我飞到斯德哥尔摩与Spotify的创始人Daniel Ek见面，那次谈话非常有趣。如果你回顾音乐的历史，曾几何时，大多数音乐销售来自CD或专辑或其他形式。然后互联网出现了，同时还有Napster、Grokster、Kazaa，所有这些基本上将音乐商品化，让每个人都可以免费获得。即便你是一个非常遵守法律的人，大多数人还是下载音乐，因为他们想要获取音乐。","如果回到23年前，整个音乐产业的总价值大约是80亿美元，这已经是很多钱了，但对于整个音乐产业来说并不算很多。这可是甲壳虫乐队和滚石乐队以及其他一切。但人们会觉得，\"我们从中赚不到钱。\"","然后，史蒂夫·乔布斯走上舞台，宣布推出iTunes：https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2003/04/28Apple-Launches-the-iTunes-Music-Store/，每首歌售价99美分，但会附带封面艺术，并确保高质量等各种内容。","但主要吸引人的，是这种“你应该为音乐付费”的情感。现在，这并不是最终获胜的商业模式，但它像树立了一面旗帜，说明这些信息实际上是值得付费的，而且非常有价值。正是iTunes最终催生了世界上的Spotify。令人难以置信的是，就在去年，Spotify向音乐创作者生态系统返还了大约120亿美元。我们可以争论这些钱是否流向了正确的人，是否分配公平。","这是我最喜欢争论的话题，因为我认为音乐产业发生的事情，五年后会发生在其他行业上。所以我花了很多时间在思考这个问题上。","这种转变，我觉得非常有趣，并且可能是好事也可能是坏事，就是支付金额或音乐文件本身变得非常少。你在Spotify上播放一百万次都不会赚到多少钱，但通过巡演、商业赞助、同步授权和广告产生的收入却猛涨。","为什么私募股权要花数亿美元购买所有音乐版权？原因是实际上通过音乐流媒体赚钱非常有利可图。仅Spotify就向音乐产业、向这些各类资源背后的实际权利人返还了120亿美元。"]},"en":{"title":"Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince discusses AI crawlers, 402 paid plans, and AI-driven layoffs","summary":"The Verge Decoder podcast features an exclusive interview with Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince about how AI is transforming the business model of the internet.","category":"Industry","source":"The Verge：AI（RSS）","aggregationSource":"The Verge：AI（RSS）","pageTitle":"Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince discusses AI crawlers, 402 paid plans, and AI-driven layoffs - Aioga AI News","description":"The Verge Decoder podcast features an exclusive interview with Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince about how AI is transforming the business model of the internet.","url":"https://www.aioga.com/en/news/cmuihjlem0mbvrov0m00k1h4g/","contentTranslated":true,"sourceHash":"01b3dfe71cbd9615","translatedAt":"2026-09-26T15:03:13.122Z"},"ja":{"title":"CloudflareのCEOマシュー・プリンスがAIクローラー、402有料プラン、AI主導の解雇について語る","summary":"Verge Decoderポッドキャストでは、CloudflareのCEOマシュー・プリンス氏への独占インタビューが収録されており、AIがインターネットのビジネスモデルをどのように変革しているかについて語ります。","category":"業界動向","source":"The Verge：AI（RSS）","aggregationSource":"The Verge：AI（RSS）","pageTitle":"CloudflareのCEOマシュー・プリンスがAIクローラー、402有料プラン、AI主導の解雇について語る - Aioga 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Aioga أخبار الذكاء الاصطناعي","description":"يحتوي بودكاست The Verge Decoder على مقابلة حصرية مع الرئيس التنفيذي لشركة Cloudflare ماثيو برينس حول كيف يغير الذكاء الاصطناعي نموذج أعمال الإنترنت.","url":"https://www.aioga.com/ar/news/cmuihjlem0mbvrov0m00k1h4g/","contentTranslated":true,"sourceHash":"01b3dfe71cbd9615","translatedAt":"2026-09-26T15:03:49.096Z"},"hi":{"title":"क्लाउडफ्लेयर के सीईओ मैथ्यू प्रिंस ने एआई क्रॉलर, 402 भुगतान योजनाओं और एआई-संचालित छंटनी पर चर्चा की","summary":"वर्ज डिकोडर पॉडकास्ट में क्लाउडफ्लेयर के सीईओ मैथ्यू प्रिंस के साथ एक विशेष साक्षात्कार है कि एआई इंटरनेट के बिजनेस मॉडल को कैसे बदल रहा है।","category":"行业动态","source":"The Verge：AI（RSS）","aggregationSource":"The Verge：AI（RSS）","pageTitle":"क्लाउडफ्लेयर के सीईओ मैथ्यू प्रिंस ने एआई क्रॉलर, 402 भुगतान योजनाओं और एआई-संचालित छंटनी पर चर्चा की - Aioga AI समाचार","description":"वर्ज डिकोडर पॉडकास्ट में क्लाउडफ्लेयर के सीईओ मैथ्यू प्रिंस के साथ एक विशेष साक्षात्कार है कि एआई इंटरनेट के बिजनेस मॉडल को कैसे बदल रहा है।","url":"https://www.aioga.com/hi/news/cmuihjlem0mbvrov0m00k1h4g/","contentTranslated":true,"sourceHash":"01b3dfe71cbd9615","translatedAt":"2026-09-26T15:03:49.068Z"},"it":{"title":"Il CEO di Cloudflare, Matthew Prince, parla di crawler IA, piani a pagamento 402 e licenziamenti guidati dall'IA","summary":"Il podcast Verge Decoder presenta un'intervista esclusiva con Matthew Prince, CEO di Cloudflare, su come l'IA stia trasformando il modello di business di internet.","category":"行业动态","source":"The Verge：AI（RSS）","aggregationSource":"The Verge：AI（RSS）","pageTitle":"Il CEO di Cloudflare, Matthew Prince, parla di crawler IA, piani a pagamento 402 e licenziamenti guidati dall'IA - 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